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 Post subject: SR3R or SR5 ? o.O
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:02 am 
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I just want to make sure we're not losing sight here. Our goal is SR3R, not SR5, right? I ask because alot of proposals lately (including my own spell-drain proposal, which I now think is a horrible idea after playing SR3 last night) seem to be a re-write of the system, not a cleanup/revision of the SR3 system.

I joined this team because I love SR3 (and hate SR4). I know there are some core flaws in the system, every system has them of course. I know we want to iron out some of those rougher areas. But I really think we need to make sure our solutions still feel like SR3. Not like a whole new system.

From a Magic point of view, and my personal opinion: Sorcery should be used for spell casting. Drain for spells shouldn't change -except- in clearly messed up areas. Spells should only be altered if their mechanics are seriously questionable (Invis). Etc.

Please, let me know if you think I'm wrong.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:44 am 
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Weeeell, that's a tough one. I did start this project because I love SR3. However, there are a number of areas that need major changes. I guess I'd put it this way: SR3R will probably be to SR3 (in terms of magnitude of changes) what SR3 was to SR2—it's no minor tweak, but neither should it be a complete rewrite.

Unfortunately, my goals are somewhat in conflict. The more we change, the easier it is to put out a full, self-contained rulebook without risking treading on any legal toes. I think that consideration is obviously secondary to keeping SR3R the improvement to the SR3 ruleset it is intended to be, but if I appear to start going off into left field, this might be why—I'm counting on the collective you to reign me back in.

As for drain, I'd like to change as little as possible, but a lot of things are fundamentally broken—either overly powerful at low Force, too weak at any Force, not inherently awful but almost strictly worse than another spell, things like that. If we're going to keep any semblance of spell design rules, everything needs to change—I haven't ruled that out yet, so that's where a lot of my attention is going. If and when it gets decided that that's too difficult a goal, we go back to fixing spells on a case-by-case basis.

~J

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:40 am 
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There are some parts which are simply going to have to be ripped out and replaced. Some other parts are just going to need a new coat of paint. I suspect in the end this will look very different from SR3 (if only because of legal considerations), however under the hood it'll still be the SR3 mechanics and universe. It's like taking an old computer, upgrading the RAM, the frame, adding some hard drives and other doodads. In the end, is it the old computer or a new one? Well... A bit of both.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:34 pm 
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That's a horrible analogy boss. :P Primarily because that assumes the changes are upgrades. There are obviously things that need fixing, or we'd all just stick to SR3, but the game really needs to feel like old-school Shadowrun. Minor changes like fixing the TN Modifiers for damage, you're still old-school with a 10-track, L/M/S/D chart. So that's ok. But losing stuff like Force/2, that is just going to feel wrong. The main group that is going to be attracted to SR3R, in my opinion, are SR3 junkies who abhor what they've done to SR v4. They/We are not gonna want a bunch of new mechanics, just a clean up of areas that obviously need it. Much like SR2 to SR3 did.

Most of us can list off the main changes between the games. Especially in areas our favorite characters fitted into (Spell Locks, Grounding, Totem Mods for Shamanists :P). I'm NOT saying, let's stop changing things, Spell Locks to Sustaining Spell Foci was a major change that I loved (though it took me awhile to love it). But we need to hold the core, in my beliefs, and not think too far out of the box.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:47 pm 
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The biggest complaint that I heard about sr2/3 etc ... was the organization of the book and how rules were all over the place and it was impossible to find what you were looking for. Also the fact that there were a million sub books and no global index of where to find what you were looking for. Some rules were tucked away into little corners and unless you read the book from end to end ... you would never know they were there.

I would like to avoid the whole number thing ... and use another name ... like Shadowrun:The cleanup. (just kidding about the cheesy name) but I would like to avoid numbers.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:59 pm 
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Yeah, indexing and referencing is a major priority. We've only got a tiny part of the chargen rules finished and typeset, but we've already got them indexed. Speaking of which, if anyone sees something that should be indexed that isn't or that is improperly indexed, let me know immediately.

~J

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:41 pm 
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SR6 (1+2+3=6!)
Sphynx wrote:
the game really needs to feel like old-school Shadowrun. Minor changes like fixing the TN Modifiers for damage, you're still old-school with a 10-track, L/M/S/D chart. So that's ok. But losing stuff like Force/2, that is just going to feel wrong.

I agree with the sentiment here (though I remember when Force wasn't divided by 2;) Where SR3 has devolved (grounding for example) I think we should rectify it.

As for a spell design system, or guns or vehicles for that matter, such systems are hard to fine tune and perhaps individually adjusting spells where necessary leads to a better result. The SR grimoire is already substantial.

Platinum, as a 2nd ed. player do you envisage playing [the improved] SR3R or sticking with 2nd? Just wondering.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:09 pm 
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if my issues with 3 are rectified... .. mainly magic and initiative ... defintely this version.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:30 am 
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Seems Platinum and I will be at ends. I think Magic and Initiative in 3rd edition are tons better than 2nd. I don't even see any problems with initiative in 3rd other than the spell which I think should be 1 spell based on successes like any other attribute.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:05 am 
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I think over all we have made concessions and have come to decent compromises considering being polar opposites. I am not keen on magic traditions, but we have fixed many of the issues that I had with magic amiacably. I don't like the point system myself, but I am willing to use it if the rest of the system plays well and has fixed things.

While I prefer sr2 initiative to sr3's by a huge margin I know why you prefer 3's. You typically play mages. And they are slow ... so often you would not be involved in combat. I usually play very fast and stealthy characters so I see the fact that your mage who roles a 1 after I rolled a 46 goes right after me and can drop me with a manabolt on the spot.

I will work on finding my alternate initiative rules, which puts actions on a bell curve, more evenly distributing actions, and present that in a different thread. The problem is that it is a little more complex.... but ... it is very fair and more realistic.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:16 am 
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SR2's initiative has flavour. SR3's has balance. Changing SR3's system isn't a priority for me, but I'm happy to review proposals.

(Translation: I'm not going to work on new systems myself in the foreseeable future. If you want a change, propose a new system.)

~J

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:41 am 
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Actually, Platinum, I'm a bit of a Power Gamer (if you couldn't tell). I usually sacrifice (not even using a Geasa) 1 Essence to get Synaptic Accelerators II and Wired Reflexes 1 Alpha (0.5 + 0.4) to start with a 5+4D6 initiative.

My character is rarely slow. I think cyber-mages are what make the game so damn cool.

The reason 2nd edition was terrible was because it was more than number of actions. People 'moved' faster than they eye could follow. I remember people doing the Flash/Quicksilver thing, I'd be on look-out with Clairvoyance and before I could even warn my team that the enemy had spotted them and were heading this way from across the entire facility, they'd already be engaged in a shooting with them.

3rd edition fixed all sorts of problems, one of them being that your movement-speed was limited to a per-turn basis, not per-action.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:49 am 
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Eesh, yeah, that's... um... that's a whole different issue, which is thankfully fixed.

~J

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:52 am 
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I thought that synpatics accelerators are only compatible with boosted reflexes. But that aside ... 5+4d6 is really awesome.

Here is the thing about 2nd.... if that you could run really far .... but that was a complex action or you could walk pretty much as far if you had enough initiative. (yes ... that was a mechanic I used alot) and is rather out of tune.

Agreed that movement was changed .. and I am still on the fence on which I like ... but that is not a deal breaker for me.... combat pool refreshing only on first action in a combat phase is also something I am on the fence about ... (being a munchkin myself) but again ... is not a deal breaker. but the fact that init is so broken in 3rd is for me. Slow people just can't react as fast... plain an simple. Wait till I table my initiative rules ... then we can discuss more about init, I think you will honestly like them. The movement issues and combat pool ... I would like to debate a little to decide where to go.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:09 pm 
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My mistake, I meant Boosted I (since Wired/Alpha sure isn't 0.4 Essence), just had Wired on the mind I guess. :P


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 Post subject: Re: SR3R or SR5 ? o.O
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:41 pm 
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I would go with SR3R... Keep everything mostly compatible with SR3, round off the rough edges but still allow everyone to pick up an SR3 book and use it without too much difficulty.


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